Over-Pleasing, Depletion, and the Pause Before the Reaction with Pam Dwyer

0:00She kneels down and she looks me right in the eye and she says, Pam, don't ever let what's on the outside determine what's on the inside. She goes, I see a light in you, sweetheart. She goes, I can't wait to see what you do with it. And that's the first time anybody had ever, you know, given me any worth, any value. This is what holds conversations with founders and leaders about the weight people carry and what becomes possible when they are no longer alone in it. I'm Carla Royal, your host. My guest today is Pam Dwyer. Pam started her career in marketing and built an agency helping small businesses find their footing. Today, she's a speaker, best-selling author, and host of the Delay the Bench Podcast. Her work centers on one simple but powerful idea that the pause between what happens to us and how we respond can change everything. She also writes under the pen name PJ Hamilton, and her best-selling memoir, From The Piney Woods, shares the deeply personal journey that continues to shape her stories, her speaking, and the work she does today. Welcome, Pam. I am absolutely delighted that you're here, and it's it's so good to be able to have another conversation with you. I enjoyed our last one incredibly just so much. So thank you. You're so welcome, so happy to be here. Tell me a little bit about what you're you've worked on over the years and where your attention is now. Okay. Currently I'm seeking speaking opportunities on delay the binge message and several several other topics that I have developed through lived experience, and then I've done a lot of research on brain patterns and why we have unhealthy habits that we continue to do even though we know it doesn't serve us well. So I'm pretty obsessed about the neuroscience of everything. You talk about the delay the binge. What is that exactly? Well, people often think I speak about resilience or habits, you know, or behavior change. And while all of those are true, they're really just outcomes. What I'm interested in is what happens in the quiet moments before we react. What to whatever our reaction is. Somewhere along the way, I realize that most of us don't wake up intending to overwork, overeat, people please, numb out, or lose our patience, right? But those behaviors are usually trying to solve something deeper. My work is is about helping people become curious about the moment before the reaction. That's it's as simple as that. It's not if you c want to complicate it, you can. But a lot of people speak on or teach or coach on the reaction and why we do it. My focus is primarily on the moment before the reaction. Because, you know, change is what happens when you pause before the reaction. And we can literally change the whole direction of your life when you have unhealthy behavior or patterns. I absolutely agree. And it brings me to a couple of quotes. Well, first of all, that quote between stimulus and response, there's a space. And it can be a microsecond, but it's always there if we learn to slow down and pay attention to it. Tell me, Pam, about this binge, delay the binge. Is binge, is that just about food or is it bigger than that for you? It's so much bigger. We binge on so many things, not just food. And it's our way of I guess protecting ourselves from what the real issues are. Many times we well, I talk a lot on what's called quiet depletion. And I am finding that because of this quiet depletion, which is where everything looks great on the outside, but on the inside, we are exhausted. And it affects primarily women. Uh 70% of women, as a matter of fact. Is that something you've researched? Yes. Yes. Lots of studies have been done. Um I don't think they're referencing it as quiet depletion. They're just uh looking at the reason most women, they're always saying, I'm so tired. You know, they go to the doctor thinking something's wrong with them because they're just exhausted all the time, no matter how much sleep they get, no matter what they do to try and be rested. But they're not accomplishing that. So they think, okay, something's wrong. I'll go to the doctor, get tests done, labs. And the doctors are like, your labs look great. Nothing's wrong with you. You just need to rest more, sleep better. And the whole time it's it's the brain is exhausted because it's quietly depleted, meaning you are on, you know, go, go, go, go, go all the time. That's what we do as women. You know, we check all the boxes. We got so much to do at work, in our careers, with our children, with our homes. And we're gonna get it all done because, well, who else is gonna do it? And we never give ourselves that pause, that moment to rest or think about who we are and why we do what we do. Why am I working so much? I mean, overworking is a huge binge. Yes. So is over pleasing. Those are two of my big binges. Yes, yes. I've noticed that about you because you are such an incredible professional and you dot all the I's and cross all the T's, and it's beautiful. Your output is is beautiful. How do you balance that? Like you're carrying something that doesn't show up in the work that you that you put out into the world. What is that that you're carrying, and how do you manage that tendency in you to overwork and to over please? Yes, it it's taken probably, I've been in about eight years of counseling, professional therapy, and I I still go, you know, just to keep myself uh in line. Because I don't care what anyone says, once your your brain develops a pattern, it loves patterns, good or bad. But once it is forced to create a pattern that it thinks it's protecting you, you know, and like in my childhood, I grew up in a very abusive, dysfunctional family. And so the first thing you think of as a young person is, why are they so mad at me? What did I do wrong? And so you strive your whole childhood to please them, to do everything they need you to do so you don't get hurt. I just I just don't want them to hurt me. And so I'm going to behave in a manner that protects me. My brain was protecting me. And unfortunately, that's learned and it's reliable. So you carry that into your adult life. Now, it has served me well in some areas, like you said, in my career and in everything that I do. But what I learned is how to use the pain for purpose instead of just trying to please everyone, my coworkers, my boss, my family. Because what I discovered is it was exhausting me to the point of where I was relying on unhealthy habits. Mine, in this instance, was food. And so I was over 300 pounds at one point.

8:26Wow.

8:27And and still, believe it or not, the doctors were telling me my labs look great. You just need to, you know, calories in, calories out. You need to stop eating so much Pam. But I could not control that because that was my release. I turned to food for comfort because number one, I grew up very hungry. We were very poor and I had no food. So already, you know, that pattern of you need food, Pam, eat, eat, eat while it's here. You may not have it tomorrow. So all of those things, there is no way I could I couldn't figure out why. I knew I was getting heavier and I knew the chocolate cake wasn't going to serve me, but I ate it anyway. That's when I got very curious. Why do we continue to do the things that we know harms us? You know, and it's because it's so hard to override the pattern that your brain has developed. Right. The pattern is there in order to attempt to keep us feeling at least safe enough. Even if it's not literally true that it's keeping us safe, it feels like it's keeping us safe. Food was was very similar for me growing up, Pam. It was the one consistent thing was really in my case, we had it. We had plenty of it and an abundance of it, and especially sweets, because my grandmother lived next door and she always cooked, she always had multiple cookies and cakes and pies in her house, even when it wasn't holidays. And it was the one place I knew I could get comfort. I knew it was there and I knew I could get comfort. And to this day, you know, it's it's a pull for me, is that is seeking that comfort there. And the comfort is what makes us feel safe. And learning how to have that pause as you talk about, take that pause, take a step, you know, take a beat and and slow down and say, yes, yes, I I want to affirm the fact that I need comfort right now. How can I get it in a way that truly protects me, truly helps me stay safe, truly is safe and comforting and soothing. And that's kind of a little bit of a stretch because food, especially sugar, just the dopamine hit is so powerful. Well, and the dopamine is what we seek when we're quietly depleted. The dopamine is is a surge of energy, right? And so if you get a dopamine rush from yelling at your kids, arguing with your spouse, eating the chocolate cake, all the things that give me this temporary, very temporary rush of energy so that I can keep doing what I feel I have to do. And so I got very curious about why I was doing this. At first I didn't realize it because I was successful. I was thriving at my job. I was a I know to this day I'm a great mom. You know, I make sure my kids don't have the life I had. And I know I'm a great wife because I love him to the ends of the earth. And he doesn't deserve it when I when I lose my temper, but he he he is patient, thank goodness. But I don't want to be that way. And you know, sometimes you think you're handling life beautifully, and you are, but until you aren't, you know, it doesn't quiet depletion doesn't happen overnight. It happens one unnoticed pattern at a time. And I've lived that. So I didn't realize though that years of patterns uh were destroying me slowly, piece by piece, chipping away at my identity, at my confidence, at everything that I thought I was striving to be. Until counseling and journaling. Those helped me finally figure that's that's the answer to your question is counseling and and journaling has brought me to this uh healing that I experience on a daily basis to this day, because it it's never gonna go away, the damage, the the behaviors. It's something that we replace with better, healthier habits. So, but the other other habits, the brain is always gonna remember that and try to go back to it because it's known that pattern for the longest. And I have to, you know, keep learning coping skills. But the coping skill for me, the pleaser, uh, is that I use the pain for purpose, I use it like fuel. You know, and I realize that at a very young age, like eighth grade. I realize I have this energy, this resource that if I learn how to tap into it, I can use it to improve my situation. Yeah, use it to protect you in ways that are really useful. A couple of things. One is how did you know that you needed therapy? Was there a particular point at which you came that oh, and I did want to comment on you said you you keep you still see your therapist to keep you in line, and I still see my practitioner, but I think of it more as just the support that I need because being a human being is very difficult. It's it's tricky being a human being. And I think in the culture in which we find ourselves, there's so much disconnection, and we're disconnected from one another, from ourselves, from nature, from whatever you think of as God or spirit or mystery or whatever that might be. I know you have thoughts on that, that I think sometimes, yeah, having that professional objective person in my corner who knows me so well after so long working together is incredibly supportive. And then I am able to, and it sounds like what you're saying with the keep me in line, I'm able to bring my self-leadership to bear upon myself and keep myself together, kind of thing. Because we really don't want to see. I mean, that's why we keep busy. We don't want to see what we deep down we already know. We just want to ignore it because it's in the way. It's in my way, so I'm not gonna look at it. But we have to look at it so that we're gonna be able to do it. We have to.

15:03Yeah.

15:04And some of us do like to. I like to. But that's because it's just the the water I swim in and the work that I love so much. And I cannot show up well for my clients if I'm not doing the work myself. I know that's true for you too, that you would never attempt to do the work that you do and the speaking that you do without having actually done the work. Which brings me back to the question of at what point did you know these patterns kind of crept up on you? You didn't really know there was a problem. How did you know? When did you know? And then not only how and when did you know, what was that point, but what enabled you to then reach out for support? Well, it's kind of it's it was an accident, actually. Well, not an accident, but my one of my corporate jobs, uh my manager was sexually harassing me with all the other women in the department. And so uh we all, you know, complained about it. And so the uh human resources pretty much said, we're not gonna fire him because we have to have him written or some some technical reason. So he was still basically gonna be our boss, but they offered us free counseling for as long as we needed it. And I was a single mom at the time, and I did good to pay my rent and buy food. And so I thought, well, it's free. You know, I'll just go. I don't think I need it. I don't know what talking to someone is going to do for me. It's not gonna change my situation. You know, and plus, you know I had a lot of private thoughts. And at that time, unfortunately, Carla, I was considering taking my life. I strongly like had a plan because I didn't think I thought my son uh deserved a better life and I didn't think that I was that and so I thought, well, hearing I'm thinking about suicide. I'm thinking about taking my life. I guess I'll go talk to her or to a therapist. And the first day I met her, I was very defensive and had a wall up. And God must have sent her because she was so down to earth. You remind me of her, by the way. But she was just really sweet and kind and patient. Now that first appointment, it and it's in my book. It's so funny. I talk that's how I open the entire story is by being in my first counseling session and when I meet her. But she did encourage me to journal in between sessions so we could talk about what was happening, you know, in my life while she wasn't there. And I thought, I'm a single mom working three jobs, I don't have time to journal. You know. But I thought she goes, just just do one or two sentences, Pam, a day. Just give it a shot. And then let's talk about it. And it's so funny because the f the first appointment I had, I did it just to because she said it would help. And I really resented it, but I did it. And she opened it up and she was reading it and she's like, Do you realize there's a pattern here? Because it was two weeks. And I said, A pattern, what do you mean? She goes, Well, every time you have to do whatever it was, you know, she goes, This is what you end up doing. This is the result, this is the reaction. And that's the first time I thought, oh, I would never have remembered how I felt two weeks ago if unless I had journaled it. So then I started journaling all the time because it was like therapy for me. It was it was helping me to put it on paper. And you know, a lot of people like, oh, I don't want to journal, I'll just do digital journaling or talk text, my journal. Like it's not the same. No. You know? It is not the same because we when you put a pen to paper, we literally process what's going on. I mean when we speak it, that's why we go to counseling. We speak it, it's uh just Yes. And it's completely different though. And it also led I see ever I see God's work in all of this because it the journal, I I use my journal notes in my book, my best-selling uh memoir. Every few chapters I have journal notes, my raw journal notes showing the brokenness. And then the following chapters show what caused it. It's like time jumping. But uh, you know, journaling is what made me realize my love for writing. I didn't ri ever think that I would be a writer, but now I can't live without it. Here you are. It's so interesting to me how you were a single mom working three jobs, having suicidal ideation, and you didn't think you didn't think you needed to go to a therapist. And I think it's I I mean, and I'm not laughing at you, I'm just it is humorous when we step back and think about it, that we somehow think we live in such an individualistic culture. And listen, I'm an individualist. I am, I am, you know, I I am. And we are too individualistic in my uh in my mind. And and we don't, you know, 98% of our ancestors lived in small communities who had help. No one raised a child by themselves. No one did. And we think we can't go get some support. And especially, I think, I don't know about especially, but I I think maybe especially really successful people somehow think it would be a uh a weakness, which is one of the reasons I want to do this podcast is because I want people, I want to normalize the fact that no matter how successful you are, no matter how good you look on the outside, we all need support. We all need connection. And so I love that you allowed yourself that. And and it's so interesting to me too, Pam, that you walked in there with such a wall because you're one of the most open people and so easy and comfortable to be with. And it was uh just for for the for our listeners, I'm using a different platform to record today. And I was so happy that Pam was going to be the first person I did this with because I knew that if there was anything that went wrong, Pam would be completely flexible and and fine with it. Not to mention that she knows how to deal with this platform. So I am. I can just see just from The little while that I've known you, how how hard you've worked and and how much work you've done and how different you are as a result. And I would also want to say to my listeners that I have all kinds of clients, and you probably do too, who don't have the kind of trauma that Pam had growing up. And that doesn't mean that support is not welcome and needed and helpful. Oh, exactly. I mean, my goodness, I know when we're very young, as young as five, I mean, even younger, five, six years old, we are literally being brainwashed on what our jobs are as women, what's expected of us, what we can do, what we can't do because we're women. And there's a lot of uh dysfunction in that. There's a lot of damage that can be done that we carry, you know, into adulthood. And a lot of times people like when I started journaling, I I didn't realize that I wasn't I wasn't reacting to what was happening in front of me. I was reacting to patterns I'd been carrying for decades. And that and that's really where delay the binge began, you know. It wasn't a podcast or a framework. It was a personal discovery. I found that between what happened to me and how I responded, there was a pause. And in that pause, I had a choice. Because most of my life I felt like I had no choice. No choice in any, no control. And so I became obsessed with having control, trying to have a choice. But every choice I made took me down a worse path, you know, and I thought I was thinking clearly, but I really wasn't. Well, our, you know, our patterns, as you mentioned, you weren't aware of your patterns. So many of our patterns are unconscious until we intentionally take time to look at them and and understand them and find them, you know, and that's the work that you've done, that's the work that I've done. And as as a child, you literally didn't have much control. You you did not. And the problem is those patterns get baked in right then and there. And then that's the part of us, that young part that did not have a choice, and a pause didn't really matter that much. It was a matter of choosing which way am I going to survive here in the in the midst of this kind of abuse. And that gets baked into us, and then that part becomes unconscious in us. And then that part is what we collapse into when we hit something that reminds us of that as an as an adult. I use the example of my mother was an alcoholic. If you were right now, Pam, listeners has glasses and so do I. But Pam, if you were to bring your glasses down to the end of your nose and look over your glasses at me in the past, I would have started to get anxious. Just that little simple thing. Like, who, what in the world? And I didn't know why. And and it's such a simple thing. And it's those little tiny things that can trigger memories. And the reason is that that's what my mother would do when she started to get drunk. She would pull her glasses down and she would look at me and talk to me over her glasses. And that's how I knew she was getting drunk, and that's how I knew that I was getting less safe. Now that doesn't happen to me with that anymore, but there are other triggers. Those kinds of things can happen, and we don't even know why until we investigate them, which is why it's so important that we do, and then to help those younger parts of us to heal from that trauma. Exactly. And it's so sad because so many people, not just women, are unaware that they have these issues. Right. They just think it's a result of something happening to them, you know, and they ignore it. But then it it starts happening over and over. Or the exhaustion is taking a toll on you mentally, but also physically. It can literally destroy your health. And, you know, I just want to help people become aware. And that's my mission in life, is just to tell people, look, people look inside. There's a reason that when your kids are grown and gone and you retire with all the money in the world from a successful job, and you still feel nothing inside. You feel empty. There's a reason for that. It's because you've ignored your identity this whole time doing, getting everything done, trying to reach goals and expectations that weren't really something you'd do if you were the person you were meant to be. And you and and they've done it innocently. Yes. Yeah. You know, it's innocent. Number one, they don't know about their patterns because we weren't taught in this culture how to find that, how to, how to look that way at ourselves, to look inside and to understand ourselves. And then through the wiring of our brains, as you talk about, those patterns have become, it's, it's just the water we swim in. It's so embodied that we don't even think about it. It's it's like I've said several times, I'm not proud of this, but I can remember in my 20s driving in a blackout and getting home safely because my body, I was so embodied, I knew how to drive so fully that I didn't, my mind didn't really need to be that present. And that's the kind of thing, you know, the those neural pathways are so deep, as you talked about, that um, you know, we have to stop walking those pathways so they can grow over and start walking new pathways until they're deep. Exactly. It's called autopilot. Mm-hmm. Yes. We are all living our lives on autopilot because I I'm a retired youth minister. So I can't tell you how obvious it is that these young people do not have a voice. I remember when I'd get the little sixth graders in, that's where they would start. They would raise, I'd say, you know, what is something you're all struggling with? I just want to get to know you. They would all raise their hand and say, We feel like robots. Like, what do you mean? Well, we have to ask if we can go to the bathroom, we have to be told that we can talk, we can't do anything on our own. You know, and that was just a huge lesson in itself. But they really don't feel like they are given a voice. And if you want to help a young person, you give them a voice and really listen to what they're trying to tell you because they're just searching, trying to find themselves, trying to figure things out. But if you don't give them the freedom to do that, well, it's not going to happen. They're going to become autopilot all the time because they're doing what they're supposed they think they're supposed to do, what's expected, and trying to reach goals set by parents. And because parents want what's best for their kids, it's not from lack of that. It's just uh let's explore, let's find out what what makes you happy, what gives you light, you know? And social media, I think, has made it so much worse, especially for the kids, but but even for adults, you know, this is how this is what success looks like, this is what beauty looks like, and it's this way or it's not there. And I think it's incredibly, incredibly dangerous. So, Pam, what changed once you started this journaling? You started the counseling, you started to bring those walls down, you started to let someone in. What changed for you? Um feeling unworthy, uh fear, shame, guilt in every aspect because I wasn't I wasn't ever told that I was worthy. And so I believed the lies. So going to counseling helped me realize I'm a pretty good person. And once I started looking at what Pam was really about, and you know, comforting little Pam, you know, telling her, you are worthy, you know, you are a beautiful soul, have a wonderful heart. I'll never forget I have to share this with you because this is the whole reason I started a podcast, it wasn't always delay the binge. It was called the Plus One Theory Podcast. And it was all about kindness. Because growing up in that situation, you're a a dirty, filthy little rug rat that's starving, and we would steal food and we were like hor little bad urchins out on the street. So people, you know, didn't like us being around. And we weren't seen, we weren't heard. But there are a handful of people of adults that did see me and that they did hear me. And I'll never forget the first time I spent the night with a a friend of mine in third grade. That's when I realized people not everyone lived like I did. She she lived in what I thought was like Cinderella's castle, you know. It smelled so clean, and there were no roaches running around, and she had a mom and a dad that had beautiful dinners set on the table, and there was food, food, food. And her mom, Mrs. Kelly, I'll never forget, I opened my little suitcase, my little bag, and roaches ran out. And so they her and my friend were screaming and stomping on them. Oh and it was heartbreaking. I didn't know. I thought everybody had bugs. You know, and so I that's the first time I ever felt shame because I knew it was something I brought in that they didn't like. And so I started packing my bag because I thought I had to leave. Miss Kelly takes my bag, takes my hand, she walks me to the back of the house where the laundry room was, and she puts all my clothes and my little cloth bag and the washer. And she turns around and I'm crying. And she kneels down and she looks me right in the eye and she says, Pam, don't ever let what's on the outside determine what's on the inside. She goes, I see a light in you, sweetheart. She goes, I can't wait to see what you do with it. And that's the first time that anybody had ever, you know, given me any worth, any value. And there were so many other instances. It's in the book where she um showed up for me a lot. Unexpected. How old were you then? I was in third grade. Okay. Nine-ish. Mm-hmm. Wow. So that's what co-regulation does for a person when you talk about that that she was the first person who looked you in the eye. That connection was so incredibly powerful for you. And to this day, I still strive to be a mom just like her. I that's how much it impacted me. That moment where I that's my point is kindness is like a superpower because in compassion, if you if you share kindness or even to receive it, it impacts both the giver and the receiver forever. And it heals. It literally heals you to be kind. Yeah. We're designed for that. We're meant to be kind. And and I think she was kind to you and she connected to you, but she saw you. Yeah. She really saw, she saw the outside, she saw the roaches, and she saw the light in you. And she called out that light in you. And that was a life-changing moment for you. Yeah, it still brings tears to my eyes. Yeah. It really impacted me. And there were other moments too where adults impacted me. But um and and you know, every day I strive to be just like they were. They are, or they were. They're no longer with us. But so you started your counseling, you brought your walls down. What changed? My whole world opened up. I became a better mom. And, you know, my son was the reason for me working so hard. I I didn't want him to grow up with a single parent. I mean, it was a nightmare to me to be repeating something that had happened to me because I didn't want him to have anything like what I had. I loved him so much. I mean, I just he was my world. I mean, to me, I thought taking my life would be helping him. But then I realized selfishly, he was just f a light in my life that I couldn't let go. And I didn't want him to grow up remembering that his mom took her life because she didn't feel value. I didn't want him to have to deal with that. So I he's literally the reason I did not do that in counseling. But counseling enabled me to see that, wow, I, you know, I do have value and I can make a difference in this world um because of my gifts, because of the light. And I just I found a lot of value in helping other people see this as well. And so that's what changed. It it opened up my whole world and I I started attracting better people in my life and, you know, that saw value in me, that saw me for who I really was, and and I just didn't know who I really was. So it opened up, you know, the of the the world of discovering Pam. What does she love to do? Well, she loves to be a mom right now. You know, and I would just take it the plus one theory is all about taking small intentional steps instead of trying to do it really big all at once. So I would just take small little steps, you know, to um finishing stronger than I started. Yeah, and those small steps are what create a really firm foundation beneath your feet. Wow, that's very powerful. Pam, your memoir came out of your own counseling journals. Most people keep that material private. What made you decide to publish it? Because I don't I I realize people needed to understand where I'm coming from. Why uh I wanted them to believe what I was saying to them. Uh and I needed to s tell my story so I felt like it like it would help me heal and help people that might be going through something similar, you know, see that they're not the only ones. I mean, honestly, when I first published the book, I thought I was one of few, Carla, that grew up like that. And after it it still brings tears to my eyes. People were reaching out to me after I published it saying, Oh my gosh, this happened to me too. Thank you for publishing that, Pam. It really helped me see, have hope. And man, talk about healing to know that what happened to me has enabled me to help others. So if people ask me all the time, how did you turn out like this when you grew up like that? And I'm like, I am like this because I grew up like that. I started placing not happiness, I mean, I wouldn't wish that on anyone, but I could use it, right, and make it work for me and for most importantly other people. Did the writing surface things that the therapy didn't or that your coaching work or speaking work doesn't? Yes, it helped me uh heal. My mother was a big part of the problem. And there are I have three brothers and three sisters. There's seven of us. Wow. And none of them were willing to help my mother when she reached a point in her life that she had to have help. And I took care of her the last ten years of her life. I paid her bills, I made sure she had care, you know, I made sure she had groceries every week. I did everything for her that I wish she had done for me. And at first I was like, she doesn't deserve this. You know, she didn't do it for me. But then I realized that I could break the cycle that's generational. I mean, her mom and dad, you know, they all it it just goes way back generations. This attitude, this way they have with with their kids. And I said, I'm gonna break it here. Literally, break the wheel. And so I took care of her the last 10 years of her life. But in that 10-year period, um I was finally able to talk to her about how I felt about growing up. She was still deni in denial or had a reason for being gone for two or three weeks at a time. She said she was working, but it didn't matter to me. I was able to voice to her, you know, what it how it affected me, what it did to me as a person, as a human being, as a woman. And we made up we made up for I mean, we became very close. She did say, I'm so sorry, sweetheart. She goes, 'Cause I love you to the end of the ends of the earth. You're my daughter. She goes, and I knew as soon as you were born with a smile on your face that, you know, you would bring joy into many people's lives. I mean, who knows you better, right, than your mom? Even in the worst circumstances, you know, your mother is your mother. And so that really brought me to a such a higher, better place of helping people because I was able to heal that part, that little pan that was hurting and wanting your mom. So every day I had my mom. It was hard. I'm telling you, taking care of an of an adult, of your parent is challenging. But I was so when she passed, there's a I write short stories as PJ Hamilton, and I I post them every Tuesday, and it's free. So anybody that wants to check that out, they can. But it's about memories from growing up in East Texas. Some of them are hilarious, and some of them are very emotional. And I wrote this one story called The Button because she was a seamstress. And the story basically is talking about how when I was little, I'd go through this tin, all these buttons. It was just fun just running my fingers through them. And I found this one button that was gold and white. So I carried it around with me my whole life. It was with me through thick and thin. And one day I lost it, and I thought I lost a part of me, but I found it. Anyway, so when she finally passed away, I'll share this with everyone. I put that button in her hand.

41:55And I realized that she was the button. That was her.

42:01That's what it symbolized for you. Mm-hmm. And I see I see how touched you are as you remember that.

42:08Yeah.

42:08And no one ever knew about the button until I wrote a story about it. And it's one of my most popular stories. People love that story. So anybody watching or listening, go read the button at PJ Hamilton's. I did something similar with my dad, but for only two years, taking care of him the last two years of his life when he got lung cancer. And we healed unexpectedly, which I never, ever dreamed possible. And what I recognize is it's because I finally accepted him as he was. He couldn't do it any, any, any differently than he did based on how he grew up. He just he just couldn't, or he wouldn't, or I don't know how to think about it, but I knew that he wasn't capable. And once I dropped my expectations of him being the kind of father I wanted, then somehow we were able to enjoy each other in a way that I had never enjoyed before. I mean, little things that I wouldn't have let myself enjoy before because I was so mad at him for not being who I wanted him to be. And he hadn't hurt me. You know, I mean, at the same time, he he did hurt me. You talked about your mother is your mother, and yes, your mother is your mother, and I knew my mother loved me, but I never felt that she truly saw me, that any of them ever truly saw me. And I think we want to be seen. We want and need to be truly and deeply seen. And that that Miss Lily, what was her name? Miss Kelly. Miss Kelly saw you. She saw you. And there's so much healing in in being seen clearly. I'm so grateful that you got that, that you got seen, and that you're getting seen more and more and more. Despite all of this work that you've done with your with your therapist and that you've done in your journaling and all the work that you've done on yourself. What is it? This is a little more vulnerable question, but what is it that you still can't quite shake? Um, overworking and over pleasing is very difficult for me. I'll I'll sacrifice I I don't even like for the longest time, I didn't know what my favorite color was or my favorite food. I knew what my husband's favorite food and color is. I knew what my kids' favorite food and color was. It didn't matter what mine was. I just wanted to please them and make sure they felt seen and heard and loved so much that I lost sight of myself. And I I'll never for I I realized it when I started writing because a lot of the childhood memories that are in that book I'd forgotten. I guess I intentionally pushed them away. I didn't want to think about all of those details. And it was difficult. It was like going back there after I'd healed or recovered from something. You know, and then you have to go back to this crime scene and revisit it all. And at first I was having a terrible time with it. But I still struggle with um overpleasing at whatever cost to myself and um overperforming because to me any of my what I view as weaknesses um well my therapist explained to me I do it because I want to make sure nobody abandons me. I want to make sure they need me and love me or want me so much that they can't leave. They're going to rely on me so much that, you know, it's a guarantee it's control. And so I have to be aware of that and I still struggle with it. Because especially in this what I'm doing now, you know, the podcast and writing uh short stories and I'm working on two other books I so desperately want to help people. That's just a given and I don't know if anybody is there. I don't know what your faith is but a lot of times I think each of us has a strand, just a strand of of our of God in us and that's our gift. And there I think I have a very rare one which is to love people unconditionally and I don't expect anything in return. I really don't I keep trying to tell my therapist this. So I'm not doing it to make sure they need me. I'm over that I I have come past that but I just have this urge to I just want them to know that they're loved and accepted whoever it is and it's a very strong desire in me and I think that's my strand. And I don't do it for any reason except to I mean I don't expect them to return it. So many people in my life I've given so much of myself to have turned on me and hurt me and rejected me. But I wasn't bitter about it. I just said well at least I got to love on them for a little while. I mean it does bother me that I can't they won't let me in to love on them because I think they need it. But I truly, truly do like to help people but I can go overboard you know yes yeah and I appreciate your vulnerability there our love is a gift. Some gifts are not received and if it truly is a gift then then we have to accept when it's not received. And it sounds like that's something that you have learned and while it's it's not pleasant when you offer such a beautiful gift and and the person doesn't want it. But it's sort of like that when you first showed up in your therapist office and you had all those walls up that's all that's happening. People just have their walls because they're trying to say stay safe and it doesn't feel safe to receive the gift of your love at that time. So um yeah really really interesting and I do hear and feel your passion to help people. Yes. And I appreciate that because we we need that. And there are those people who want your love and what you have to offer they are they are there. Pam what would you want someone listening to know if they're still carrying everything alone that you're not alone there is help out there. First of first and most importantly if you're feeling alone or having any type of suicidal thoughts or you're just depressed I always tell people depression because I suffer from it a lot depression is like being in this dark well and you have no way out the walls are slick and you can't get out that's what deep depression or sadness feels like it feels hopeless like there's no way out but all you gotta do is look up and there's bright sky there and there there could be someone to throw you a rope but you have to let them know you have to vocalize that you're in the well so I guess you know just know there are so many people like me willing to help you come out of it. And it and it doesn't happen overnight. It didn't take just a quick little jog for you to get there. And it's a process and but I'm not the only one with with a program out there or support. But the best thing you can do is to involve yourself in a community of some sort whether it be your you know a local neighborhood anything there's all kinds of things you could do but find just one person that's going to believe in support in you. And you can find them. They're out there and I want to acknowledge I agree and I want to acknowledge how incredibly frightening that making that move can be having been suffered from great depression and anxiety myself. It sounds simple and I don't want people to think that it's true what you're saying and it's terrifying in certain cases, especially when you have reached out and been rejected or been swatted down. I think it's fair to say that that yeah be discerning when you reach out there it it there are people out there who want to hurt and who don't have your best interest at heart. I don't think Pam is saying that it's easy but it is possible and and I want people to know that it is possible even if it's terrifying it is possible. Yeah and you know I do want to say you're not broken and it's not a matter of of discipline or willpower for you to make a change but I mean don't rush you you smile slow down and remember that your past doesn't define you it prepares you and start believing in yourself because if you're alone the first person is you need to find yourself. And Carla I always tell people I have a a story it's called the hidden mountain it's like your Buddha story but it's different in a way where we're life is like a mountain that we're climbing constantly you know the journey just trying to get to the top to the summit. Guess what if you don't look around and and focus on the journey that you're taking and and use whatever's happening to you for energy and fuel when you get to the top it's not going to be what you think. Because guess what? There was another mountain hiding behind that one. You're not done. All right we're never done there's always another mountain and so sometimes the summit we think we're striving for is just a temporary place for us to look at what happened in our lives and use I mean how do we learn? We learn by messing up well and I think there can come at least there has for me Pam, I don't know about you, come a point where the mountain actually even the challenge of the mountain becomes interesting and adventuresome and that there's so much joy and beauty to be found on the mountain even when even when it's hard to to move about it at times. Doesn't have to be always so hard as it was maybe at one time. Well and especially if you're aware you know get curious get some clarity yeah yeah be honest with yourself for sure. Well Pam how can people find you? Oh my goodness you can go to delay the binge dot com and that will take you to my website that has all my other work you know and it will take you to different places but delay the binge dot com is probably the easiest or pamdwyre.com. It'll take you to the same place.

53:28Okay. Thank you.

53:30Oh and about those short stories Carla I do want to bring that up if you go to newsletter.delaythebinge com it'll take you to a place where you can see all my stories and better yet sign up on my email list that really helps me reach you and keep you updated on all kinds of wonderful things. Nice. Pam, as always it's been a joy to be with you and I also see that light in you and I see your big big big big generous heart. So I thank you for being here today and and on this conversation. I appreciate you. You're so welcome. Thanks for giving me a voice today Carla. If this conversation brought someone to mind, send it to them. That's how a new show like this reaches the people it's for I'm Carla Royal. I work privately with founders and leaders on the things underneath what they are carrying. You can find me at carleroyal.com This is what holds. I'll see you back here next time